Quincy Jones said the Beatles were the worst musicians

[Moogmodule]

I've never heard this.  Interesting.

I've tried to find more detail but nothing so far.  It was just one of a list of Hal's extensive work that was referred to in a podcast.

[zipp]

<< I read (of course, I can't remember the specific book) that during the Abbey Road sessions Paul would go back and overdub Ringo's drumming with his own on most of the songs. I recall reading that his wife said Ringo would often come home in tears.>>

I have to correct myself: It was during the White Album sessions that this allegedly happened. And yeah, I can believe Ringo being in tears; I get stressed just reading about the tension of the White Album sessions. I can't recall whether Geoff Emerick quit during or right after them, but they sound nightmarish.

Emerick quit during the sessions but I don't recall him mentioning Paul redoing Ringo's drums. I'll have a look in his book, but this looks like a myth to me.

[Moogmodule]

I find the whole concept of overdubbing drums curious. Clearly it used to be done but I wonder how you could do it without it being obvious. Especially up to the late 60s when presumably the original drums weren't  even on their own track. Since all drum tracks, and hence the instruments accompanying them, will have slight timing variations, I don't see how you could overdub and keep in close enough time to not make it sound odd.

[Normandie]

Emerick quit during the sessions but I don't recall him mentioning Paul redoing Ringo's drums. I'll have a look in his book, but this looks like a myth to me.

I didn't read that in Emerick's book; it was a different book. I'm quite swamped with work right now but will try to track the passage, myth or not, this weekend.

[Normandie]

I didn't read that in Emerick's book; it was a different book. I'm quite swamped with work right now but will try to track the passage, myth or not, this weekend.

I checked several of my books but can't find the passage. I definitely remember reading it, though, true or not. It must be in one of the earlier books I read that I didn't keep.

[nimrod]

I find the whole concept of overdubbing drums curious. Clearly it used to be done but I wonder how you could do it without it being obvious. Especially up to the late 60s when presumably the original drums weren't  even on their own track. Since all drum tracks, and hence the instruments accompanying them, will have slight timing variations, I don't see how you could overdub and keep in close enough time to not make it sound odd.

I agree

[Mr Mustard]

It's all a bit of a storm in a teacup really, isn't it?

Quincy's entitled to his opinion and presumably gave an honest answer to a straight question. Will anyone particularly pay attention? will he sway anyone's opinions of The Beatles by now? I somehow doubt it.

Didn't UK National Treasure Sir Cliff Richard say something very similar about them a few years ago? about them being woefully out of tune and rather grating on the ear when he first heard them? Of course they knocked him and his Shadows off their perch but I don't remember coming away with the impression that Cliff was being churlish. Rather an honest (subjective) opinion laced with much irony in a "shows just how wrong I was!" sort of way. I'd like to give Quincy the same benefit of the doubt but I admit I haven't read the complete article.

[zipp]

I admit I haven't read the complete article.

It's a bit of a "tell all" interview. But he avoids questions on Bill Cosby.

Apart from criticising the Beatles musicianship he also says the Irish are racist, Hendrix was scared to record with good musicians, the mafia killed Kennedy, the Catholic church is corrrupt and Trump is a *********ing idiot.

It's certainly worth reading.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/02/quincy-jones-in-conversation.html

[Moogmodule]

It's all a bit of a storm in a teacup really, isn't it?

Quincy's entitled to his opinion and presumably gave an honest answer to a straight question. Will anyone particularly pay attention? will he sway anyone's opinions of The Beatles by now? I somehow doubt it.

Didn't UK National Treasure Sir Cliff Richard say something very similar about them a few years ago? about them being woefully out of tune and rather grating on the ear when he first heard them? Of course they knocked him and his Shadows off their perch but I don't remember coming away with the impression that Cliff was being churlish. Rather an honest (subjective) opinion laced with much irony in a "shows just how wrong I was!" sort of way. I'd like to give Quincy the same benefit of the doubt but I admit I haven't read the complete article.

You're right. It is a little annoying though that he's supplied the internet " the Beatles couldn't play" trolls  with another easy talking point to derail conversations whenever the Beatles are brought up.

Apparently quite a lot of people thought the Beatles were out of tune when they first heard them. Testimony to the less common harmonies they used compared to most pop artists of the day.

[zipp]

It is a little annoying though that he's supplied the internet " the Beatles couldn't play" trolls  with another easy talking point to derail conversations whenever the Beatles are brought up.

I think Quincy is criticising the fact that they're not musical virtuosi. He doesn't seem to understand that you don't need to be a great musician to write, record and perform brilliant songs. He's in awe of jazz musicians who quite often never create an original tune but just play around with the same old standards.

[nimrod]

I think Quincy is criticising the fact that they're not musical virtuosi. He doesn't seem to understand that you don't need to be a great musician to write, record and perform brilliant songs. He's in awe of jazz musicians who quite often never create an original tune but just play around with the same old standards.

I agree that he was saying they wern't virtuoso but Strongly disagree with you about Jazz musicians not writing new tunes, your ignoring people like Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, Wayne Shorter, Miles Davis, Jaco Pastorius, Herbie Hancock and lots more.
Loads of modern day Jazz albums stuffed with new tunes.

[zipp]

I agree that he was saying they wern't virtuoso but Strongly disagree with you about Jazz musicians not writing new tunes, your ignoring people like Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, Wayne Shorter, Miles Davis, Jaco Pastorius, Herbie Hancock and lots more.
Loads of modern day Jazz albums stuffed with new tunes.

The only one Quincy mentions is Herbie Hancock and the only thing I know by him is Rockit which is not exactly earth-shattering. Name me some tunes by the others and I'll give them a listen.

Quincy also mentions that he liked Cream. I suppose this is because they were a group who, live, mainly improvised on old standard blues songs to show how well they could play their instruments. I bet Quincy couldn't name an original song by them.

[Moogmodule]

I think Quincy is criticising the fact that they're not musical virtuosi. He doesn't seem to understand that you don't need to be a great musician to write, record and perform brilliant songs.

Yes I agree. To be fair Quincy has spent a lifetime around amazing technical musicians. Most rock/pop musicians, usually coming from a more self taught background, will suffer in comparison.

Where I think he missed it is that musicianship is a combination of musicality and technical accomplishment. The Beatles, and others in the genre, weren't at the height of technical prowess but I think they all were very musical. Frankly I put more store in musicality than technical proficiency. Even a basic player who has great musicality will put something worthwhile across. While someone who is just a technical whizz without much musicality will sound sterile and dull. At best you might go wow at some amazing technical lick. Gets old very fast though.

It's interesting he said he liked Cream. Some jazz musos I know think Clapton is a joke. (Although they give wraps to Jack Bruce). It's hard to know where genuine critiquing ends and music snobbery begins though. 

[Moogmodule]

The bottom line is that if you see a post by Loco Mo (me), don't take it too seriously.  I guess I'm like my dad who no one ever should ever have taken seriously but always did.  My dad lived in an alcohol-infused world and his view of the real world reflected the hazy lenses through which he viewed it.  I mean look:  I wrote a post one night calling Yoko the Greatest.  Don't even take me with a grain of salt.

Most of the good recent conversations have been on subjects you've started Loco.  So keep it up  icon_good

[Loco Mo]

Thanks, Moog.  Sometimes I'm not too sure about posting.  But usually my impulse to do so wins out.

I've run into Quincy Jones type-critics throughout my life so this article really caught my eye.

I think he was just grandstanding and trying to gaslight us but that won't work.  I'm not gonna fall for a presumed expert's POV.  My soul responds to the Beatles - that's what matters.  Book smarts and technical smarts do not necessarily create masterpieces and if they do, sometimes those can only be appreciated dryly or clinically.

Those Beatles - you can't reduce their power with bogus defamatory accusations while hoping to dupe gullible listeners.

It reminds me of the book "I'm okay; You're not Okay."  The idea being that I can only feel good about myself if I can believe someone else to be bad.